New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Well, as I said, I am back with some personal comments.

I have tried before, one year ago, to write my personal opinions, beliefs and impressions but my post was deleted, don't know why....

From what I have observed till now, I can say that the dominant characteristics of a European Collie nowadays is a beautiful head and a thick and attractive coat. But in the run to obtaining these two characteristics, I strongly believe that most breeders have sacrificed construction, good bodies. This element has lead further to bad or even very bad movement. Also, head selection was mostly based on expression, many breeders make abstraction of the other elements a ideal Collie-head should have and this has caused in years a small head, with short muzzle and underjaw and many other lacks... I also believe that many countries in Europe have developed their "own type of Collie". We can find parts of Europe with Collies having heads with very deep stops (although these heads may look lovely, they're simply not Collie-like, I'd say more bear-type), countries that have a large stock of under-sized Collies, countries that have Collies with huge huge coats and I could say much more on this subject. The main idea here is that neither of these breeders do not breed to the standard. Character of Collie has been also somehow "lost on the way", in the run of obtaining the "perfect show Collie". But there is no such thing as a perfect Collie, especially when temperament is lost :-( These are very few of my impressions based on what I see in Europe. I won't say a word about American Collies' temperaments as I haven't had the chance to meet any.

But turning back to the American Collies, what I like a lot in them is the lovely body construction and their lovely movement. I would change heads on most of them if I could (I don't want to offend anybody here and neither in my other paragraph), and maybe I would add some more coat, not the hugest one, but more coat for sure!

And as a summary, if I somehow could do that, I would take some bodies from America and add some coats and improved heads on then and maybe then I could have an ideal Collie :-) or not?!

I am very tired today and that's the reason I was so brief, I'll sure be back with more, but would love to gather here more people and all their impressions. That's the idea of a forum in my head, a place where people express in a polite way, their ideas and feelings.

I don't have much time to write, as I have to leave for work soon, but I'll write little bit.... and keep it polite (was we did last year when this thread first started) as long as others are polite as well.....

As far as American Collies go... I'm not going to say that this should be changed or that should be changed. I personally feel this is more of an individual thing, that needs to be decided based on each family of dogs. For instance, I just bred my champion smooth bitch, she has a beautiful body, I love her head overall. What I would change about her, is less width between her eyes... and MAYBE a slightly leaner head. The stud dog (a rough tri) that she was bred to, SHOULD be able to improve on this.

As far as the American Collie heads, obviously that is just a personal preference. Just as American's would change the European Collie head, the Europeans would change the American collies head. I love the look, and the qualities of my Collies.

I look back dogs in History 100 or more years ago... the head of the American Collie is not something new. Its been around for a long time.


Such as Anfield Model who was born in 1902. His head looks VERY much like today's American Collies. I'm not going to say he is a great representation of the breed. Obviously pictures don't show everything, and everything I have read about this dog was his temperament was not great. I am speaking purely on head qualities here. I have a book full of pictures of Collies from the late 1800's to early 1900's. Head qualities back then resemble more so of what American Collies look like today... in my opinion. Of course you like what you see. As I said above.. I'm sure most European breeders would change the american collie head... just as the American breeders would change the European collies head.

As far as coat on American Collies. No way.. I would NOT want the amount of coat that some of the European Collies have. I think its not real functional. Per the breed standard the coat should be well fitted. I know there are some Roughs in america that don't carry much coat, however the majority carry a very good coat, and correct to the standard. The coat needs to protect the Collie from the elements while its working (herding/working sheep)... it needs to keep them warm in the winter and cooler in the summer. I have yet to see any of my Collies... rough or smooth, ever get cold. They can go out in the rain and come back in and only the outter coat is wet.. the undercoat is still nice and dry.. as is their skin.

As far as the European dogs (and I know different parts of Europe have different types of Collies)... I would give them more muzzle and underjaw. Most (not all) that I have seen, just based on pictures seems to be snippy in muzzle with weak underjaws. I've seen some, based on pics, that seem to have to much stop. I would (of course) give most of them a bit less coat. Some of them need more bone and substance... and I've seen a few in pictures that seemed a bit to short in back... and not enough length of neck.

I posted this picture on a European based Smooth Collie Forum and they LOVED this picture, they thought this bitch was gorgeous. This is a 6 month old puppy... as the head lengthens they will loose some underjaw but not a lot!

No depth of head.. nice, tight lip line. Really nice profile, especially for a baby.

Another thing I just thought of, and would like your opinion on....

I love to just surf the web and look at Collie breeder websites, from all over the world. Australia, Europe, Japan, Canada, different breeders all over the US.

Anyway.. one thing I have noticed is that the European Smooth Collies, obviously there are differences between them and North American Collies, but from what I have seen from pictures and also from talking to breeders, the European Smooth Collies resemble the American Collies much more closely than the European Roughs do.... as far as body and head qualities go. Which I do find interesting. I know in Europe the two varieties were split up into two separate breeds several years back, but the standards, for the most part, have remained the same, but the dogs are very different.

Talking to several smooth breeders in Europe, I have gotten mixed feelings from them.. as to why this is. Most seem to think the European Smooth is a much better working dog and has retained the working heritage better than the Rough.

Any views on this, I would be very interested in hearing. I've already talked to other breeders on the smooth Collie forum, and have smooth breeders opinion on this... but I would be interested in hearing what the Rough Collie breeders think of this. This is particularly interesting to me, because, luckily (in my opinion) the Rough and Smooth are considered two varieties of the same breed in North America and so there for can, and often are, interbred. So I'm just curious what other people think...

Most of my litters I have had over the years have been rough x smooth breedings.... on occasion I have done Rough x Rough. I prefer rough x smooth though. I have a rough x smooth litter due in Sept, but I will be doing a rough x rough breeding this fall.

Has anyone seen Pahlex Easy Money (Tartanside Alliegance x Corydon Il Suprema)? He and his equally stunning littermates are just one example of the "perfect balance" between the (classic, not spitzy) UK collie and its North American counterpart that can be achieved through the careful blending of bloodlines, in this case from what are arguably the top two Collie breeders in the world, Tartanside and Corydon. In my opinion these dogs are capable of winning on either side of the Atlantic. What do you think?