New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

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New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Olivia on Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:30 pm

I am so much interested in breeders' views and oppinions about this breed, its standard and the many types of Collies that are bred nowadays... I strongly feel the standard either needs to be modified here and there, or we should accept there are several types of Collies... It's not only about breeders' views about the standard anymore... this current has went far beyond that. If you watch carefully, you'd see that different countries in Europe have completely different types of Collies. In one place they are of a smaller size and more fluffier, other place they are more classical and taller, there they are stronger in bones with heavy marked stops, here...... I don't give names as I don't want to hurt anyone or seem to dislike one type and like the other. It's not about my tastes here, it's just that I want to find out breeders' views about the subject. Thank you all in advance for your responses.
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:53 am

While I can't speak for the Collies in Europe and so I don't know the difference breeders are seeing in collies in different countries throughout Europe.... but in North America there are a lot of differences that can be seen in certain lines of Collies, or just in certain geographical locations....

Some different "families" or lines of Collies I see at shows are finer boned with big soft fluffy, incorrect coats, and have such horrible movement they couldn't move to save their lives!... but these big soft coats are pretty so they win.. even though their coat is so soft and incorrect they are like hot spot factories if they get out in the rain (I personally had a breeder with dogs from this similar family tell me to never let them out in the rain or to make sure they got totally dried after a bath so they don't get hot spots). How is this correct?? Collies were bred to be working dogs, out in the cold, damp, rainy weather... how can be working dogs if they can't be out in the rain???

There are other lines who do a lot of winning, whos dogs are so tiny and cute with nice little coats, but they could be mistaken for oversized shelties by some non-dog people who have no idea what they are looking at...

I personally don't think standards need to be changed or modified at all, and I don't think we should just accept that their are several different types of Collies .... I think that would be a very wrong thing to do for this breed.. you change the standard and it will only change the breed even more, and as time goes on you wouldn't have a true collie anymore.... You shouldn't change the standard to meet what the Collies are looking like at this point in time, rather you should breed your dogs to more correctly meet the standard. what I think needs to be done is breeders need to stop being kennel blind to what faults or virtues their dogs have, they need to stop breeding dogs to match the fads that are going on at the time, and judges need to stop rewarding these dogs who do not correctly meet the standard, but rather meet what fad is being bred at that current time.....

Obviously everyone is going to have their own interpretation of what the breed standard means.... what the correct eye is, what the correct stop is, what the correct ear set is etc... but when the dog obviously has an incorrect soft fluffy coat... or is very under or oversized, or dogs that have such horrible movement they can't move without banging their hocks together or crossing over in the front.. these dogs should not be winning at shows... and if they do win... just because they are winning at the shows, people should not breed their dogs to them or accept these faults in their own dogs, just beacuse others are winning with these same faults...

Just my opinion....
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Evenstar on Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:14 am

Just wonder - in your opinion what part of the current Standard should be changed, Olivia? study
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Olivia on Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:46 am

Interesting question......I DON'T want to change the standard, I'd love to own and breed dogs that should look like some dogs in the past used to....but it seems that (and Spiritwind pointed it excellently), if you aim to breed and get the chance to breed that type of collie, you won't have any chance in the strong world of competition. Without shows, you don't exist, you don't have what to do with your progenies, it's a long chain of reactions.... so people are strongly forced to get somewhere in the middle of this current. They adapt their pleasures and preferences to the actual tendencies and requirements. Again, spiritwind underlined very well the fact that, at least judges should be less tolerant....
Collies nowadays strongly changed into show dogs, with less character and temperament than in the past....they became more fluffier, are not so tall like they used to be, head changed enormously (try to read the part of the standard where head and stop are described), the whole outlook changed a lot. If you stick to the standard and breed Collies accordingly, you'll be in the situation to be told by judges and other breeders that you own the "old" or "classic" type.... but what does "old" and "classic" mean if the standard hasn't changed????? I simply wonder.
I am not very inspired right now, as soon as I'll get to new ideas I will get back here.
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:45 pm

What you said Oliva makes a lot of sense... about the Collies changing.

I know you are talking about the European collies..but some of what you are saying I can see in the American collies. Temperament wise, especially... I absolutly cannot stand a dog that is just a lazy house dog, or acts like a yard ornament. What I mean is, are these collies that have no drive to do anything. I see it a lot in badly bred pet quality collies that came into the vet clinics I used to work at (have worked at vet clinics for the past 9yrs).... these dogs are just laid there, didn't care about anything, were soft tempered dogs that just didn't care.... they aren't animated or interested in doing anything. This is why Collies get the reputation of not being good working dogs anymore, or not being good performance dogs. Because people have selectively bred for looks and don't care about this working dog temperament they should have.

With my dogs I like dogs that can be great house dogs, that are smart, and loyal and great with kids but soon as they step foot outside they are up and ready to do anything...run thru the woods, get dirty, be dogs.... dogs that have the drive to be working dogs, dogs that have this intensity about them and a look in their eyes that says "What are we gonna do next"... "Lets go, lets go, lets go..." LOL I think being able to breed roughs and smooths together in north american helps with that some... because while I don't see a huge difference in temperament between the different coat varieties, alot of people see the smooths as the more intense working dogs....

I know the European dogs are 2 inches shorter than the american dogs.. so as far as size goes, in america there are absolutely lines of Collies that are smaller than the american standard calls for.. I personally prefer dogs to be in the mid to upper end of the size standard... with good bone and substance.... not heavy dogs, but dogs that don't look like they are going to break when they are out in the field working... I can't stand stick legs on a collie...

Now in the European dogs, especially the roughs, I can really see the head changes.... I don't want to offend anyone, or start any kind of argument... but like Olivia said, the heads have changed. If you look thru collie books or old magazines and look at pictures of the some of the champion European Collies from the late 1800's and early 1900's that were imported into America their heads are TOTALLY different in appearance than the European collies of today. Same for the amount of coat.. the Collies back then didn't have these huge fluffy coats... and while I know for the most part the european collies tend to have more coat than the americans... even the current american collies have more coat than the collies imported into america in the early 1900's... but I think a lot of the coat differences is in how we (show people) groom and care for the coats today.. as opposed to how they were groomed and cared for over 100 yrs ago.

Below are some links I found of some well known rough collies that were imported into the US from Europe in the early 1900's.. wow.. how times have changed.

GB & AM CH Wishaw Clinker
A dog that was imported to America from Europe in the early 1900's

GB CH Parbold Piccolo
Another great dog that was imported into the US in the early 1900's. According to the book Collie Concept, the day he arrived in america his owner let him loose and the dog ran away and was never seen again... this was considered one of the greatest loses to the american collie fancy at the time..

GB CH Anfield Model
Born in 1902, he was imported into america and was a highly touted dog, because he was the ideal that many breeders were striving for in head and expression
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Another link

Post  Spiritwind82 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:59 pm

I found another link with pictures of some of the great collies of the past that I though I'd share.. lots of great photos!

Collie Breed History - Pictures of the past
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Olivia on Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:36 pm

Wow Spiritwind, thanks a lot for all these links, I'm just looking at those pics now....
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:11 pm

Olivia wrote:Wow Spiritwind, thanks a lot for all these links, I'm just looking at those pics now....

No problem.. I love looking up pictures of Collies from the past. If you click on those first 3 links I posted and it takes you to the dogs page with a picture and pedigree.. some of the names in the pedigrees are unlined and liked to more pictures.. so you can go back thru the pedigrees on some of the names and see a lot of different collies of the past...
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Katamano on Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:33 am

If i know well the English dogs changind started with Lynway Sandknocker and Brilyn Supertramp.
They have a new expression and every body started to prefer it. The breeders started to forget that collies are workdogs too, and they made a showdog from them. It wouldn'T be a problem, but i hate when i met the trainers in dog schools and they said me that "oh a collie, it would be a hard project." And obviusly it'S not true. My boy was learn much more shorter everything than the german sheperds. But That's something we can't forgot Collies aren'T "slavedogs" like german sheps, malinois ect... I have to show my boy that i adore what he does and then he does everything what i want, but if he start to bore it he will stop. That the differency i think. There are lot of collies who can learn agility, dog dancing who can take IPO just we have to find them, and we have to these type of sports with them not just the shows. Collies are excellent for me they are the best. But i really hope one day some of them can be a workdog as in the past. I will work with my every dog. I usually go to shows too but it'S not the most important thing to me.
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:47 pm

I looked up those dogs: Lynway Sandknocker and Brilyn Supertramp

to see pictures of them... found a sight that had their pedigrees listed as well as pictures of some of the dogs behind him on their pedigrees... if you go back a few generations behind them you can really see the difference from how their grandparents or great grandparents looked... compared to them... so breeders just started like that look better so they decided to breed for it???

Collies get the same kind of treatment from trainers in the US... thinking they can't be working dogs, or really do anything more than be pets.... though it is getting better!!.. there are more and more collies in the US doing herding, or agility, search and rescue, tracking or even service dog work... and I've even seen photos of Collies doing Schutzhund....

I agree with you.. Collies aren't like German Shepherds.. but they are smart, working dogs... you just have to keep it fun and interesting otherwise they get bored and want to do something else...

I love my collies, and to me, there is no better breed... they can do anything you ask of them... Ive done herding with some of mine.... as well as I used to compete in Agility, someday I would love to be able to do it again, when I have time... currently I am doing Flyball with one of my Collies... while it took her a little while to get going with it (she isn't ball or toy motivated) now that she knows it.. she loves it and is very good!! can't wait to compete with her!!..
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Katamano on Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:50 pm

I am really happy that you agree with me. It's really nice that you worked with your dogs and do flyball with one of them. It is something to start to delete int the usual people's mind that they aren'T good-for-nothing. I am always very happy when i hear that. My dog has working dog title, at first lot of collie breeders thought that i hit my dog and that's why he do that sport.... I know they were envious but i think my dog isn't unique, there are many collie in the world who can do it. That's why i want to start my kennel, to tell people collies are wonderfull. I know i am too little for it, but Hungary there are many people who knows my collie, and tell me they weren't right, he is smart. Different but smart. He is not as fast as a border collie, never 'll be.

About Sandknocker and Supertramp, They are in every collies bloodline in hungary, and everybody used them. I know it's horrible, But it's unfortunately too. If you see my homepage bonomano.atw.hu there you find the way from Old Cockie to my dog. It's interesting i think. At the first picture you have to click to the picture and then the fotˇalbum. In that menu you'll find an "old-timer collie" click to this picture, and then you can find the way of the collie changing.
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:29 pm

Yes I agree! Just because they aren't border collies, and no, they won't be as fast.. but just because they aren't border collies doesn't mean they can't do it. Like I said before, I think Collies aer by far the best breed of dog.. and they can do anything you ask of them...

I went to your website and looked at all the pictures... from all the roughs going back to Trefoil and Old Cockie...

I have to say... looking thru all the pictures... there are several of the old time dogs I'd take now if they were alive!!! They could do very well in the ring over here in the US!..

Dogs in the old photos like....

Royal Ace of Rokeby - wow! I love him! He is absolutely beautiful! Good coat, great body, appears to have a really nice head, with a nice full round muzzle!!! Do you happen to know what year he was born or what years he was siring the most?? If he were alive today, I'd take him in a minute!!

Witchkraft of Rokeby - looks to be a very nice tricolor!!

Burwydne Bendelbury - another one I think is beautiful and again, if this dog was alive today, I'd take it!!... beautiful..

Pied Piper of Aberhill at Rixhown - in your photo album he also looks to be a very stunning dog

I also think Parbold Piccolo, who is a dog that was imported into the US in the early 1900's is a very nice dog... though after arriving to the US he was let loose to run on his owners property and disapeared the very day he arrived and was never seen again.... which was considered to be a huge loose to the american breeding programs at the time.

Anyway... that is a wonderful website you have... a great photo history of the Collie!!

Janna
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Olivia on Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:45 pm

No Shocked affraid I wrote quite long regarding this subject, i put all my heart and soul in it and in the end the text was lost because of a forum problem..... I could cry now Sad As soon as I'll be able i'll write again.
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Katamano on Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:30 pm

Sad Sad Sad

Please write it again. But you should write it in Word at first.
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Brains And Mouth

Post  Boozer on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:37 am

just a quick piece of advice to spiritwind and Katamano. Please engage brain before opening mouth, if no brain and real knowledge it is better not to open mouth in first place!
Royal Ace one of the main dogs in the back pedigree of both Sandknocker & Supertramp, Witchcraft of Rokeby whilst the mother of Royal ace & Romney of rokeby was herself not a very good bitch at all, Pied Piper of Aberhill was a very nice but very small dog and guess what his breeding was almost identical to the mother of Sandknocker!
You talk about the dogs that went to america pre war do you really think that your own dogs look like that? also i do not know how long you have owned or bred collies i have to say that you do not appear to have had a great inflence on the breed either for good or bad, but if you have had more than one collie can you honestly say that all of your collies looked exactly the same? of course not one of the aspects of breeding animals is that you have to accept change because you are powerless to stop change, the best that you can hope for is that you can control the change in an beneficial way!
Lastly i would say to you both please do not tell us how to do it but please show us how to do it by breeding exceptional dogs that change the breed in the way that you desire and that all the breeders around europe would aspire to! I await your next litters and success in the ring and in the world of collies with great anticipation.
Kind regards, Boozer!

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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:14 am

Just a suggestion for you. I think you need to take your own advice and follow what you preach. You certainly haven't justified your knowledge or influence on the Collie breed...

At no time, in any post did I say my dogs looked like any of the dogs that were imported into the US back in the 1800's. Use your brain and reread carefully and slowly if needed.

You talk like you are some high and mighty person. I'd really love to hear about all your success with Collies, as based on your post you think you know much much more than anyone else.

Boozer wrote: i do not know how long you have owned or bred collies i have to say that you do not appear to have had a great inflence on the breed either for good or bad, but if you have had more than one collie can you honestly say that all of your collies looked exactly the same? of course not one of the aspects of breeding animals is that you have to accept change because you are powerless to stop change, the best that you can hope for is that you can control the change in an beneficial way!
Lastly i would say to you both please do not tell us how to do it but please show us how to do it by breeding exceptional dogs that change the breed in the way that you desire and that all the breeders around europe would aspire to! I await your next litters and success in the ring and in the world of collies with great anticipation.
Kind regards, Boozer!

First I do not live in Europe, I live in the US. So obviously I have American bred dogs. I am proud of those dogs. I have had been showing Collies for 15-16 yrs now. I have had a very limited number of litters, but have done well with them. I have finished champions on several dogs. I have several pointed and/or champion dogs/puppies I have bred. While not "In" collies as long as some, you have to start somewhere, and I have worked with breeders who have been breeding top winning dogs for 20-30-40+++ yrs....

I never said all my dogs looked like, of course they don't. But they do have a family resemblance. While I said (and do believe) the American collies of today, look MORE like the European dogs from the late 1800's and early 1900's.. than the European dogs of today look... you don't have to accept change, the goal is to IMPROVE on the dogs. You breed dogs TO a standard, you don't change a standard to meet what current dogs are looking like. You can breed toward a look, that is how you get families of dogs. If I go to a dog show I can tell just by the look of certain dogs what kennel they came from because while they dont' look EXACTLY the same, they have a family look to them.

Lastly I couldn't care less what you think or what your opinion is. I do this FOR me.. and for no one else but me. I do this because I love my dogs. If you don't like my dogs you can take a flying leap. I don't care. I'm not sure if you are a breeder that really knows anything.... or just someone who thinks they do, but my goal is not to impress you, as I couldn't care one bit what you think.
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Changing the standard

Post  Boozer on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:39 am

Spiritwind, thanks for your post. In America you have already changed the standard from the country of origin 2 inches at the shoulder is a hell of a lot! you also say that you don't have to accept change and then go on to say that your dogs do not look like the old dogs coming into America and you also say that American dogs now look more like European dogs than in the eighties what is that if it is not change? if you remember i said that we have to control change in a beneficial way, you say that we should look to improve the breed continuously, isn't that sort of the same thing? how do you improve with out changing anything?
Lastly, the ascerbic nature of my first post was because off the offhand way that a couple of great dogs that have done a great deal for the breed, of course not all of it good, that would be impossible, were just blamed for all the ills of the breed in Europe!
Glad to hear that you have had some suucess though.
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:45 pm

Boozer wrote:Spiritwind, thanks for your post. In America you have already changed the standard from the country of origin 2 inches at the shoulder is a hell of a lot! you also say that you don't have to accept change and then go on to say that your dogs do not look like the old dogs coming into America and you also say that American dogs now look more like European dogs than in the eighties what is that if it is not change? if you remember i said that we have to control change in a beneficial way, you say that we should look to improve the breed continuously, isn't that sort of the same thing? how do you improve with out changing anything?
Lastly, the ascerbic nature of my first post was because off the offhand way that a couple of great dogs that have done a great deal for the breed, of course not all of it good, that would be impossible, were just blamed for all the ills of the breed in Europe!
Glad to hear that you have had some suucess though.
Boozer

First... again you post none of your accomplishments with the Collie breed... so I don't see how you are even justified to make these comments.

Second, if you say the American's have already changed the standard. Explain one thing to me then.... when people say this all they ever talk about is the height. Well it certainly hasn't affected the working ability of the American Collie. Which is sort of what they were bred to be. They are getting more and more common as all around farm dogs here. On the family farm and in trials. Both roughs and smooths. They compete at herding trials against many other more commonly used herding breeds, border collies.. aussies...etc.. and do VERY well. They hold their own. How many 100% European bred Collies can or are stilled used today as a herding dogs, both at the home and at trials???? I'm on several Collie forums, all based in different parts of Europe. This one, which is a rough collie forum, another one that is a smooth collie forum, and another that is a forum for both roughs and smooths. There have been MANY smooth (and rough people) people on the forums that are horrified by the the majority of the current roughs in Europe because of their complete lack of working ability!!! among other things.....

Back to the height. There is no Disqualification in the standard for height. Yes, the standard says for males 24-26" tall for dogs and 22-24" tall for bitches. However I have several bitches who are barely 22" tall (so they would fit into your standard for max height). Some of my girls are even 21" tall. Why???? Because there are MANY other things to think about in breeding that height. If I have a great dog that is a little small... I'm not going to put her in a pet home because of that. You have to pick and choose what you can deal with and what you cannot. There are certain things I cannot tolerate. Its just a personal preference. The height doesn't affect the all around working ability of a dog. I have a smooth bitch that is about 23 1/2 inches tall! She is absolutely beautiful! Beautiful body, nice head detail, great temperament. I've had a couple people tell me she has the best collie temperament ever. Smart, loyal, easy going and beautiful body! I had a 26" tall male that several years ago I did a lot of herding with. He was the best herding dog I'd ever seen!

As far as changing the standard. The AKC Collie standard hasn't been changed since May 10, 1977. The FCI Rough standard was last changed January 2009. So you really cannot say your standard has not changed. The AKC standard hasn't changed in over 30yrs.

You need to re read my posts again. You are twisting what I am saying. What I said was my dogs don't all look a like. I said the American Collie looks more like the European collies of the late 1800's and early 1900's... (I never said anything about the eighties. I said 1800's)than the current European dogs do. However my dogs do have a family resemblance to EACH OTHER. Its not like each litter or each generation my dogs look different from each other. When you look at one, you can see this one is obviously closely related to that one... because they have a similar look.. a similar body style, a similar expression etc.... You breed to maintain this, not to change it.

Yes.. Change occurs, however my point is you do not change the standard to meet what the dogs are looking like. YOu breed the dogs to meet the standard. Of course all you came back with for American's changing the standard is height, which is a bunch of BS because again it certainly hasn't affected the original purpose of the Collie -- as a working/farm dog.

Again I think you need to get your head out of your ass and reread the old posts (that are over 1yr old!) I never blamed any of the past, great dogs, for causing any problems for the breed in Europe. These past, great dogs, I thought were beautiful and its a shame there are very few today that still look as classic as they were -- that is the dogs I posted about. The dogs Katamano posted about Sandknocker and Supertramp I didn't care for their look but they do not look as much like the dogs I posted about. Everyone has their own preference in what they like.

I will say over all, the European Rough collie is not to my liking. Just a personal opinion. Some of the smooth Collies I really like... others not so much. I do think it was a shame when the roughs and smooths in Europe were split up into 2 separate breeds, I think it really caused the gene pool to get even smaller than it already was. However based on talking with some of the smooth breeders around Europe, the thing I would fault them on is the lack of coat on their dogs. The smooths seem to have more working ability than the roughs but One breeder told me they thought American smooths had to much coat, but then went on to say the only down side they had with smooths was in the winter months they could not work their dogs because they got to cold. That really defeats the purpose of a working dog, if it can't work all year around, its not much good. I have rough and smooths... I prefer smooths but I do have 3 roughs.. and 4 smooths. I have NEVER in the 16yrs I've had Collies, seen ANY of my dogs, roughs or smooths get cold. Never. They should be able to handle colder weather. My smooths tolerate the cold just as my roughs... and my roughs can tolerate the summer as well as my smooths. When I lived farther north my smooths would curl up and sleep in the snow, they loved it.

I do have a rough x smooth litter due in September. And I have a 12 wk old rough sable bitch that is absolutely beautiful, I've had several breeders ask me if she was forsale, but she is not and will not be leaving! Beautiful body, great head detail for a baby... moves well. I've had several breeders tell me she is the prettiest puppy they have seen in a long time. I'm very excited about this puppy.

As far as my success with my dogs. Well I'm happy with what I have done so far, in the VERY limited time I am able to show them and the limited number of litters I've done. I have only ever had dogs shown at 2 Collie Club of America national specialty shows and I've had 3 dogs class placements... and 1 dog with a class win... all in a VERY large class entries.


Zack - now CH HawkEire Flyin Withou Wings - class placement at the 2005 CCA, smooth open dogs.


Paris - CH Spiritwind Barely An Angel (sired by Zack) - 4th place 6-9 smooth bitch class out of 25 smooth bitch puppies in her class. 2005 CCA. This was her first show and she was 6 months and 3 days old.


Lindsay - Can. CH Armitage Spiritwind Stolen Halo (litter mate to Paris so also sired by Zack).. 1st place rough open blue bitch class at the 2009 CCA. Bred by me, owned by a lady in Canada.


Another picture of Lindsay in the show ring at the 2009 CCA.


Bree - Ptd. Spiritwind Galway Girl. Daughter of Paris (pictured above). 3rd place 6-9 smooth bitch class at the 2009 CCA, pictured 6 1/2 months old. There were 18 in the class.

Basically I have 3 generations of national placements/wins.

And my newest hopeful. Tori - still haven't decided on a registered name. Born May 2, 2009. She is a Zack (pictured above) great granddaughter.


pictured at 9 wks of age. I need to take some current pictures of her.

Zack was a large male - 26" tall. Paris is a tall bitch. 23 1/2 inches tall. Lindsay is probably 22-23" tall. Bree is a small bitch, she is 21-22" tall.
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Various

Post  Boozer on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:30 pm

Wow, that seems to have hit the spot!
The only reason that i brought up the height thing was to illustrate that whilst banging on about not changing the standard your country had in fact done so! why was this, was it because your dogs were being bred too big for the original standard? Further to this after rightly pronouncing that breeders should breed to the standard you then go on to say that you have taken upon yourself to ignore a part of the standard and put it down to personal preference, if you can do this in one part of the standard why not in another, perhaps we should all breed not to the standard but our personal preferences where do you think that would lead us?

You say that the F.C.I changed the standard but it is the U.K. standard that is the breed standard and is adopted by the F.C.I., some while ago the British Kennel Club asked for standards to be simplified in the wording this was done but no changes were made to dimensions, measurements, faults or virtues!

I apologise for misreading your para on the 1800s not eighties! There you go an apology WOW!

You say that all of your dogs have a family likeness well of course if you breed to type they should, i think one of the complaints of Katamano was actually that too many of the dogs in Europe followed the type of the two dogs, now dead, that she was slating! and by the way it was the comments of Katamando that got me at it, so much so that this is the first forum that I have ever posted to!

In your next paragraph you once again refer to the height thing you say it's B.S. and go on to say that it doesn't affect their working ability, fine but change the standard you did, live with it or as in your case choose not breed to that part of the standard! by the way thanks for admitting that change occurs in the same paragraph.

To have a discussion about the different types in the U.S. & Europe is futile because the differences are so great, i fully understand that your personal opinion is that you do not like the european type as i am sure most Americans will not either, of course this feeling is reciprocated by most , not all, breeders in Europe and is completely natural when you see the respective dogs.

When you talk about the standard and the type of dogs that you breed/like you pay much more attention to the working aspects of collies than the show standard. Whilst I understand that this may be your "cause celebre" we are discusing show dogs i believe not working dogs, and before you say that they should be able to work you will only know that when you try to train each indivual dog! Back to the ringside,the head for instance has as many or more points of reference in the standard than the rest of the dog put together, 34 points of reference in the head in total. It is my belief that whilst of course construction and soundness are of vital importance, it is the head and the unique expression of a Rough Collie that Sets it apart from other breeds. A rough collie that does not have a good head and expression is just a dog with long hair!

Thank you for the photo's they were very interesting.

Lastly you chide me for not listing my activties, breeding and achievements but you will just have to take it (or not) that i have done ok! I don't want to give the game away but suffice it to say that i have bred Rough collies, not smooths very successfully over more years than i care to remember, I judge both roughs and smooths both in the U.K. and Internationally.

There, that was all a bit more civilised wasn't it?

Regards Boozer.

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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:41 pm

Boozer wrote:Wow, that seems to have hit the spot!
The only reason that i brought up the height thing was to illustrate that whilst banging on about not changing the standard your country had in fact done so! why was this, was it because your dogs were being bred too big for the original standard? Further to this after rightly pronouncing that breeders should breed to the standard you then go on to say that you have taken upon yourself to ignore a part of the standard and put it down to personal preference, if you can do this in one part of the standard why not in another, perhaps we should all breed not to the standard but our personal preferences where do you think that would lead us?

Ok.. apparently you are to closed minded to really understand anything. There is NO perfect dog. Every dog has a fault. There are NO dogs, of ANY breed, on the face of this earth that meets its breed standard 100%. EVERY dog has a fault or faults. You have to pick and choose and hope to improve on those faults each generation, while maintaining what you ALREADY have. Yes, I have some dogs that are on the smaller side of the AKC standard. But in consideration of EVERYTHING else in the standard I'd take a smaller dog with a gorgeous head piece and correct body with wonderful movement. When you breed you can't ONLY fault judge a dog. You have to look at its virtues. Does it have the virtues you want to take on to the next generation???? Then who the hell cares if its a 1/2 inch or so undersize. Size is not hard to get back.

EVERYONE breeds their dogs to their own vision of the correct collie. They use one standard (in the US and Canada) but everyone has their own idea of what that standard means. What they can tolerate what they can't. I'll tell you one thing I cannot stand to even look at and will not keep in my own dogs. High set, short, curly "gay" tails.. something MANY European Collies have. I've watched Youtube videos of European Dog shows, posted on the other forums I go to. This is something I noticed on many roughs. Yes, there are American Collies with this as well.. but its something I cannot stand to look at and will not keep a dog in my breeding program with a horrible tail like this. It completely throws off the look of the dog when gaiting.

But EVERYONE, in EVERY country around the world.. no matter what standard you use, everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Everyone, while breeding as close to the standard as they can, still has their own eye and their own likes and dislikes. This is how you get different looks in families, while dogs in different countries look different. Or just different parts of a country look different. Not ALL European collies look the same. Not all American collies look the same. It doesn't mean they don't meet the standard, they very well can. IF every dog had to look exactly the same to meet a breed standard it would be pretty boring.

As far as changing the height requirement in the standard that happened long long ago, not last year. When breeders from Europe talk about the American's changing the breed standard this is the only thing that ever comes up. I have found websites listing the changing breed standards of the Collies in Europe changing multiple times since the late 1800's. The European standard has been changed a number of times. You say the change to the FCI standard was just to a simplified in the wording, but this just makes the standard even more vague and gives even more room for people to breed away from the standard.




Boozer wrote:You say that the F.C.I changed the standard but it is the U.K. standard that is the breed standard and is adopted by the F.C.I., some while ago the British Kennel Club asked for standards to be simplified in the wording this was done but no changes were made to dimensions, measurements, faults or virtues!

I apologise for misreading your para on the 1800s not eighties! There you go an apology WOW!

You say that all of your dogs have a family likeness well of course if you breed to type they should, i think one of the complaints of Katamano was actually that too many of the dogs in Europe followed the type of the two dogs, now dead, that she was slating! and by the way it was the comments of Katamando that got me at it, so much so that this is the first forum that I have ever posted to!

Ok.. well it might have been Katamano who's comments caused you to post on the forum, but your first post was very rude and had my name in the post, so it included me, even though you know nothing about me, my dogs or my experience with Collies.


Boozer wrote:In your next paragraph you once again refer to the height thing you say it's B.S. and go on to say that it doesn't affect their working ability, fine but change the standard you did, live with it or as in your case choose not breed to that part of the standard! by the way thanks for admitting that change occurs in the same paragraph.

I would suggest slowing down and actually reading what I write. I said the European's talk that the American's changed the standard so much. I said that was BS, when all they talk about in reference to changing the standard is height. Again, let me ask you. If you say I don't breed to the standard. So you are saying every dog you bred met the standard 100%?? I think not, I'm sure since you seem to think you are some high and mighty person, you think your dogs did meet the standard 100%, but no dogs do. If you ever bred a dog with a slight full stop or a receded backskull, or a short back, or a curly, high set, gay tail you weren't breeding to the standard either!!!




Boozer wrote:To have a discussion about the different types in the U.S. & Europe is futile because the differences are so great, i fully understand that your personal opinion is that you do not like the european type as i am sure most Americans will not either, of course this feeling is reciprocated by most , not all, breeders in Europe and is completely natural when you see the respective dogs.

This I will agree with you on. Though I do know several breeders, personally, who have sold a number of Collies (rough and smooths) to different breeders in Europe. But, yes, I will agree with this....


Boozer wrote:When you talk about the standard and the type of dogs that you breed/like you pay much more attention to the working aspects of collies than the show standard. Whilst I understand that this may be your "cause celebre" we are discusing show dogs i believe not working dogs, and before you say that they should be able to work you will only know that when you try to train each indivual dog! Back to the ringside,the head for instance has as many or more points of reference in the standard than the rest of the dog put together, 34 points of reference in the head in total. It is my belief that whilst of course construction and soundness are of vital importance, it is the head and the unique expression of a Rough Collie that Sets it apart from other breeds.

Now this statement of yours "When you talk about the standard and the type of dogs that you breed/like you pay much more attention to the working aspects of collies than the show standard. "

This is a bunch of BS. Why?? Because I think breeders should focus on the original purpose of the dog, as well as the conformation of the dog. Really the two follow each other. A dog with poor conformation is not going to be able to hold up well as a working dog. Yes, in the past I have done herding... obedience, agility, flyball.. all sorts of stuff with my dogs. My main focus is on conformation, but I have done other things to prove my dogs aren't just stupid fluffy dogs that can run around a ring. They can still do what they were bred to do.

Your belief is that working ability is not important to a collie anymore, is one reason so many people who do performance events think collies are stupid, lazy, badly bred house pets.

Maybe its because Collies are hardly used for anything but for show or pets in Europe, but you can do both with a show dog. I know many breeders who have TOP ranked Collies, that also work sheep.... or do other performance events. Its sad that a breeder who claims to want to keep the collie breed going, such as you do, thinks that maintaining the working heritage of the collie is not important.

Yes, the AKC standard also talks a large portion about the head qualities of the collie. However as Steve Field of Parader Collies (one of the most influential Collie breeders in the US back in the early/mid 1900's said, "A Collie is a herding breed, it does not walk on its head" You can have a dog with a perfect head piece, correct body and working ability!!


Boozer wrote:A rough collie that does not have a good head and expression is just a dog with long hair!

Yes, and a Collie without any working ability is not a true Collie, just a lazy house pet
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Getting Bored

Post  Boozer on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:29 pm

There you go again slating the European dogs ........ did i once say anything bad in this post about American dogs? I think not!

I think it hilarious that the first place that you start when assessing and complaining about your likes and dislikes is the dogs arse!

Given your reply I think this time it is you that needs to read the post more carefully because you are well wide of the mark in answering what i wrote!
Antway i am becoming bored and this will be my last post as it is obvious that we will probably be unable to agree what colour black is so there is no point to continuing!
But believe it or not, i do wish you future success in whatever you want to do with your dogs.

Bye Bye,

Boozer

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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:37 pm

I have no problem with European dogs. As I have said several times. Everyone has their own idea of the prefect Collie. I just stated my opinion just as you have stated yours. Your are entitled to that, just as I am.

Though based on your post I'm guessing you have bred dogs with those high set, curly gay tails.... Oh no, you didn't breed to the standard! You said I didn't because I have a bitch who is under the size standard (even though her sire is 26" tall and her dam is 23 1/2" tall). Americans (and Canadians) prefer the larger dogs. Unfortunately there are a lot more smaller collies theses days. Apparently the horrible tail sets don't bother you. That's exactly what I was posting about. EVERYONE has their own idea of what they like or not. What they could put up with, and what they can't tolerate. You must be able to tolerate the high, curly, incorrect tails.

Seeing that you twist everything I have posted, its hard to answer your posts to your liking.

As far as tail set goes, that was just a VERY easy, obvious thing to bring up because its not hard to see. If you don't see it, you are truly blind.

I'm not saying I like this dog.. but this is the sort of tail set I prefer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uCpc23ytlg

2008 Euro Dog Show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh0ZoD-0dBs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAbXp9L5wY8

You can see the difference of tail set. I never said it was ONLY European dog with this tail set, read the post again, sure American collies also have it, I just will not keep anything with these horrible tail sets. Once you get it in your line of dogs, its hard to breed out. Besides that, its been shown that MOST dogs with bad tail sets tend to have badly constructed rears. I'm NOT saying the dogs in the videos have bad rears, its hard to see much in these videos.... other than the tail. I'm just posting what I've read and heard from other breeders.

I don't know why you are complaining about height anyway, when it appears the only thing you care about are the heads. I think my dogs have gorgeous heads. Paris, Amy and Bree.. beautiful profile, no depth of head, not flared, good strong underjaw, stop just where it needs to be.

I thought this would be interesting to see....

Rough and Smooth Collie at 2009 Crufts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUb545UOxEE


Rough Collies at 2009 Westminster

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=1004401

Smooth Collies at 2009 Westminster

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=1004002
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  brian on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:02 am

Well that was all very interesting.
Like Boozer i gave it up as a bad job and this will be my last post on the subject.
I checked out the videos and your dogs move well and believe me i have had some good movers in my time , but i will be honest and say that i find the heads on your dogs ugly (Incidently i do not look for a deep stop this is wrong } The eye placement is totally foreign to me and the fashion of fixing the ears does nothing to improve it. Also when breeding how do you breed for natural ears when you insist on fixing your puppies so young?
In England what you see is what you bred, no artificials. At least we know which dogs to breed to , their faults arent tampered with.WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET

IMPORTANT THINGS that should be thought about when viewing the video.
The European dogs are handled by their owners and often they do not get the best from the dogs,unlike the Americans who use more professional handlers.(unless spiritwind is one of the men handling in the photos}
The collies in Europe are owned by people from all walks of life, some show their dogs literally on a shoe string and most are companions before they are showdogs.
You cannot generalise on the dogs in a country from 1or 2 shows(certainly not in England) Many factors like the judge on the day and location make a huge difference to the collies that are entered.
As for crufts many a good dog never makes it because of coat or a bitch nursing a litter. If you want to see the best in uk or any country you need to visit the breeders, or the main collie club shows

By the way Tramp or Sandknocker did not fly their tails. not as much as your dog in the video liifts it.although other dogs of their time did. Also bare in mind that they where competing in entries of 200+ collies in the 80s.
Tramp sired most of the crufts certificate winners in his time and gave me the last collie to win a working group in the uk(they splt pastoral and working a few years later}.

s
Also remember that i only bred Tramp, i did not control how people bred to him afterwards, you said i was looking to blame dogs(which in fact was not true} but it is what our friend on here is doing because they are the most common dogs within the pedigrees.i THINK IF SHE HAD MORE KNOWLEDGE OF THE DOGS ON THE PEDIGREE IT WOULD HELP.
If you wish to view my cv on collies . checkout Brilyncollies.com. If they displease you then tough because they pleased a lot of other people.
Spiritwind i wish you well with your collies,as for Katamona can i suggest Tropical fish might be a more rewarding hobby, at least she can avoid Tramp and Sandknocker[
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Spiritwind82 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:56 am

I'm assuming when you say "your" dogs you mean American dogs and not my own personal dogs, because I have not said anything negative about anyone's own personal dog. I never made those comments about Supertramp and Sandknocker, Katamona made. But if you want to take things personal and talk about own personally owned dogs I can certainly do it as well.

As far as my own dogs are concerned, as I have said before I do not care what you or anyone else think of my dogs, I love them. I am happy with them, I have done well with them, and I think they are beautiful.

As I said before, everyone has their own idea of what the ideal collie is. As far as heads go, over here, most think the same of "your" dogs (as in European)... we find they have a chow chow like expression, slanted foreign eyes, snippy muzzles and weak underjaws, with WAY to much coat. As far as a deep stop goes, I'm not sure where you got that. I agree, this is wrong. I never said anything about a deep stop. I said a deep head, which is totally different, but also incorrect.

As far as the ears go, its not called "fixing" ears. Its called bracing. And there are plenty of natural eared dogs. If you want to see some natural eared dogs...



Paris has natural ears, not touched. All through her puppy days.... and they still look good today!


This bitch also has natural ears. She was sold as a baby and her owner did nothing with them. She came back here to me in January and her ears are beautiful!

I find it funny, though, that you are worried about natural ears, but, and maybe you aren't like this, but Boozer certainly didn't care about keeping the natural working ability in the collie, but natural ears, those are important.

But again, we could say the same thing about ears on the dogs over there. That they are to heavy or not set properly on the head. Again, just another persons opinion on what is correct. It doesn't mean one person is right and the other wrong... or vise versa.

brian wrote:
IMPORTANT THINGS that should be thought about when viewing the video.
The European dogs are handled by their owners and often they do not get the best from the dogs,unlike the Americans who use more professional handlers.(unless spiritwind is one of the men handling in the photos}
The collies in Europe are owned by people from all walks of life, some show their dogs literally on a shoe string and most are companions before they are showdogs.

Yes.. I agree, in North America many people use handlers, though there are still many owner/handlers in Collies. Some breeds (like the German Shepherd, Boxer, Dobie, its ALL handlers) but Collies still have a large number of owner/handlers or breeder/owner/handlers. The only reason I posted those video's was to show tail set and carriage, nothing more. Handlers cannot make a dog put a tail up or down, or over its back while moving. Per the Collie breed standard, tail should not be carried over the back.. and should have a slight curve at the end... but not be curly. Again, I'm not saying ONLY European dogs do this, I have seen American dogs do it, I am just saying that is one thing I cannot stand. I have had a couple dogs in the past do this, and finally I just spayed them and put them in a pet home.

As far as show dog vs. companion. My dogs are my companions, they are raised in the the house, they go for rides in the car, they are treated like normal dogs... and then are shown.

and as for the video's. None of the dogs in the video's are my dogs. They are just video's I found to show what I think of, when I think of correct or incorrect tail sets. Tails shouldn't be culred up over the back, right at the base of the tail. It should come straight out at the back.. with a slight twist at the end. If the dog isn't real "into" being shown, it might be held lower, but it should not be curled over the back. I've seen this in more videos than just these.

brian wrote:You cannot generalise on the dogs in a country from 1or 2 shows(certainly not in England) Many factors like the judge on the day and location make a huge difference to the collies that are entered.
As for crufts many a good dog never makes it because of coat or a bitch nursing a litter. If you want to see the best in uk or any country you need to visit the breeders, or the main collie club shows

Shouldn't the same then, be said about our dogs?? You are making generalized comments about American dogs based on pictures and video's too.. unless you have actually came over to see the dogs in person yourself.



brian wrote:Also remember that i only bred Tramp, i did not control how people bred to him afterwards, you said i was looking to blame dogs(which in fact was not true} but it is what our friend on here is doing because they are the most common dogs within the pedigrees.

Yes.. I agree. Once you sell a dog, you cannot control how people breed him. However you lost me on the second part of this quote: "you said i was looking to blame dogs(which in fact was not true} but it is what our friend on here is doing because they are the most common dogs within the pedigrees"

I never said anything about anyone blaming anyone for anything??? Unless it was Katamona you are talking about here....

brian wrote:Spiritwind i wish you well with your collies,as for Katamona can i suggest Tropical fish might be a more rewarding hobby, at least she can avoid Tramp and Sandknocker

Ok.. so I'm guessing that last part was about Katamona then. As I have tried not to say anything negative about dogs personally owned/bred by people in this conversation. Really the only reason I have posted what I have is because Boozer's very first post, which was incredibly rude, included my name in his rant, then once he posted his opinions of American dogs, I felt I should also post my own opinion. But again, these are just MY opinions.

I think everyone on this forum loves Collies. Regardless of where they live, where they show, what standard they follow. I may not care for most (though not all) of the European bred dogs, just as you may not care for dogs from North America, but I will still try respect other breeders views and opinions as long as they can also respect mine.


Last edited by Spiritwind82 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Post  Olivia on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:01 am

I will just make it short for now, it's just a small intervention.

I would just want to ask all people involved here to not stop posting. Making exception of the few disagreements and some mean and sharp words, that shouldn't find the place in a normal dialogue, I would say that the topic really became interesting, I wouldn't put an end to it quite now.

I would love to ask Boozer and Brian to not stop posting, it is not productive, maybe adopting a calmer dialogue would produce something really interesting to read?! I was expecting such a dialogue right from the beginning, when I opened this topic. Please adopt a new style of expressing words, but please don't stop posting, it surely doesn't do any good...

And it would be lovely if Boozer would reveal his identity, it is more normal to talk to someone when you know who he is...


And as we finally speak honest, it is really getting interesting and I now feel the need to express my honest opinion also. So I will be back in a short while...
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